*Photograph of Nora Lange by Gary Leonard*

You may have read Nora Lange’s immersive, elegant writing in publications like Hazlitt, Juked, or American Short Fiction, among others. But as of September 2024, you can read a full novel from Lange with the publication of her debut, Us Fools.

The story of Us Fools centers on two sisters: Bernadette, the reserved and observant narrator of the story, and Joanne, the elder, more outspoken of the two. Set in 2009, an adult Bernie is reflecting on her upbringing, beginning with their childhood spent on a farm during the Midwestern farm crisis of the 1980s and, later, the family’s move to Chicago. Through Bernie’s eyes, the reader witnesses the tumultuous family life that Bernie grew up in – reckless Joanne rebels with stunts like jumping off the roof, while their father drinks too much as the family debt piles up. Bernie and Jo’s differences only become more apparent as they grow up and the story moves into their teen and adult years – but the sister dynamic remains the heart of the story, just as the love between them remains. Written with smart, captivating prose and told with utter sincerity, Us Fools makes for one all-encompassing and absorbing read.

Below is our conversation about Us Fools, beginning a story with an auditory jumping off point, what Joanne and Bernadette would be reading today, and more.

Nikki: To start us off, can you tell me how you fell into writing?

Nora: It’s probably an answer you hear all the time, but I’ve been writing forever. I mean since I was little, like little little. I even wrote my own Bible version. But I don’t know that I took it seriously, like I didn’t go to school for writing because I was like, I always write, it’s like brushing your teeth. When did I begin writing? When I was little. When did I go, oh shit this is for me? I was in college.

Nikki: Then, when did you start writing Us Fools?

Nora: Us Fools, I think, really took its form around 2018, so a while ago now. Our world is always moving around – and when I say, “our,” I mean my husband, Nick, and I. So we’re always trying to get jobs or get better jobs, so most of the time I was working in short form, like short stories, and working to publish those or working to publish personal essays. Then, there was the novel and everybody’s process is different, but for me, I need space to kind of dive in. And when you’re working full time, sometimes it’s really hard to get that space, so shorter things were easier for me to dive into for a while.

Nikki: That makes sense. So how did the idea for the novel come about?

Nora: So, I was asked this question yesterday and I was like, well this answer makes me sound crazy. But I heard the sisters, I heard them. Thank god you asked this question again because now I’m diving into it more on second answering. When I was an undergrad, I was in the sound department and sound art is pretty esoteric. I was into audio plays and all this stuff, so it sort of makes sense that I would hear something given that – the auditory – was my department. I wish I could say, oh I remember I was standing in front of the movie theater or something, but I don't remember what place in time, I just remember hearing one [sister] and then hearing the other. And [I knew that] they were not on the same page and it set off a little pattern. To be honest, a lot of my short stories start with the voice anyway so it's probably similar to that except, in this case, I actually heard them. And they have a lot to say.

Nikki: How did the idea change and evolve during the writing process, if at all?

Nora: To be honest, I don’t even know that I had an idea. I kind of followed the thread, like following Alice, I just went into the wonderland. And it was almost like pulling back out of that where I was like, I need a structure, like a decisive structure. Even still the book isn’t confined by any super tight structure – I mean it does have a structure, since [Bernadette is] looking back [from 2009]. But it just doesn't feel like a vault. So I followed the threads and somewhere along the line, I was like, okay what's happening here? And I tried to investigate and I saw that [the sisters] were like these little sponges absorbing the world around them. So then I was like, well what are they absorbing? I tried to highlight some of the themes and topics, whether it’s health and nutrition, the farm crisis or catastrophe, or their parents and pull those things out and push myself to explore those things. It was almost [like exploring] academically because of the level of research that went into this particular book is pretty high.

Nikki: So, I’m curious about the point of view – it’s told from Bernadette’s perspective, but there is some distance between herself as a character and the narrative. For example, she sometimes refers to her parents by their first names, the reader learns a lot more explicit information about Joanne before they do about Bernie, and we don’t even learn Bernie’s name until page 33. At one point, Bernadette even says, “I began to believe that life would be simpler in the third person.” I think this sentence really encapsulates this interesting dynamic. Can you talk me through how you found Bernadette’s voice and settled on this POV?

Nora: I think that it must be by nature, or instinct, that I have a tendency to overthink and over complicate things. I think that it was a conscientious thing to want to explore a character by virtue of her observing other people. I could have just explored her very directly, but I [decided to] explore her through how these other things impact her. And the thing is, [Bernadette is] younger and she doesn't really know what she wants yet or who she is. I think she learns to define those things for herself by understanding how they work in relationship to others. And I think that she’s timid and she's quieter and I think it just takes her a minute to find that confidence. So I think that third person is just an easier way of not owning something. If you say ‘I believe in this,’ then you’re declaring something and by virtue of declaring something it belongs to you and you own it. I think she’s just trying to sort out the sort of puzzle that she finds herself in and a part of that puzzle is who she is.

Nikki: I also think this dynamic adds a bit of mystery in a way, or a pull to keep reading, because everytime she shows up in the present tense, it’s like, oh this is a little preview of who she becomes. Then you go back to the past and there’s that distance again. So it fits the structure well.

Nora: Yeah. She's reflecting. It takes place in 2009 and she's looking backward and the looking back is her kind of writing of the events. So the present does feel more intimate and connected because she’s that much further along in her development. To be honest, as a writer, it was fun to be with her in that 2009 space and to be with her in college as the book progresses and see her explore her relationships online. Like, there’s the twinning there, too, of the two guys, Preston and Paul. And, similarly, I sometimes think of her relationship with her sister as a kind of twinning. They’re not twins, of course, but they’re like weird reflections.

Nikki: For sure. And I wanted to ask about the two sisters and their relationship. Bernadette and Joanne are so different from one another – at one point, Bernie says, “Jo did not fear mortality, whereas I feared everything.” Can you tell me about what you were hoping to explore about sister dynamics?

Nora: Yeah and maybe it goes back again to this overcomplicating thing, but I think for me, as a person, I want both. For instance, if someone asks, like, ‘Do you want something sweet or salty?’ and I answer, ‘Both! I want both!’ Like, why do I have to decide? So I guess, I wanted both things with these characters and to have these two play off of each other and define each other in opposition, but also in harmony too. When you think about it, the way music is made – it’s not because all of the sounds are in tune, it’s just that together it creates this sensation. So I think I wanted, as a whole, to create a sensation like that. Instead of having one kind of thing represented, I wanted these two things, like a yin yang.

Nikki: I think that’s very representative of sibling dynamics, like even when you’re in opposition with each other, you’re still a team.

Nora: One hundred percent, like it’s you two against the world. I mean, I say that and I know it maybe sounds dramatic for someone else, but when you grow up with someone and they see what you see and you see what they see, then you can really not like each other but still, when it boils down to it, it really is the two of you. You are united, you are chained – in a good way. You’re linked.

Nikki: Something I found interesting is how Joanne refers to the two of them as “junk kids.” Can you expand on that term and what it means to them?

Nora: There are a few ways to answer that, it's like a quilt. I think that one word that comes to mind is something like ‘punk,’ they’re a little bit punk. They’re unruly, even Bernadette who plays it safer – she plays it safer almost to be annoying sometimes and to be different from her sister. Also, I think it’s the way they often feel in the world, so it’s like square pegs, round holes. They just don't feel like they fit, so they’re a little bit of, you know, misfits and outcasts – there’s a bit of that, regardless of whether that's accurate. Then, for Joanne, the eldest, she sort of struggles mentally and physically, so there’s a real outcast thing. Then, Bernadette, she just doesn’t feel like she belongs. So [Bernadette and Joanne] have their own kind of language and they have their own way of viewing things. They’re the kids in school who just didn’t have the cool snack, ever, or there was no Jansport backpack. They may have wanted Converse and drawn [the design] on a piece of paper and sewn it to whatever crappy shoes they had, just to pretend. So the ‘junk kids’ was like a password [for them].

Nikki: I like that a lot. I also think it could have been an alternate title.

Nora: Yeah, I know! Totally.

Nikki: What would you say your biggest challenge was writing Us Fools?

Nora: Generically, finding the time. Also, equally true, balancing the various threads in my head, the things I was obsessing over. Once I started I just wanted to always just check back in on [each thread], whether it was, like, extremism growing in the country or finances or whatever the thing was. Weather, storms, climate change. All of these things, I was just mapping them and it started off not that hard, but then, after you get hundreds of pages in, and then you're like, this is a lot to kind of keep all together. And no one asked me to do that. These are all things that you do because you decided that they matter, and that’s what mattered to me. So that was a big challenge, holding those threads and keeping them alive.

Nikki: Are there any books or authors who were major influences for you on this novel?

Nora: I have so many books that I looked to for this book and I can say that one of the most fascinating – one that I would return to now, even if not for [Us Fools] – is a book called Weatherland [by Alexandra Harris]. A lot of books were in my head, on my desk, in boxes, on the floor, on the computer, on Libby, you name it. But Weatherland I would go back to. It’s a pretty hefty book about weather and literature and it’s an academic book, so it’s not fiction. Which isn’t to say I wouldn’t return to the others, but the others became more research-based – like, Preserving the Family Farm [by Mary C. Neth], something like that, which I don’t know that I would go pick up right now. But Weatherland, for me, someone who’s into that stuff, it’s like candy.

Nikki: What recent books have you read lately and loved? What books do you think Bernadette and Joanne would like?

Nora: I loved that question [when you sent it ahead of time]. At first, I was like, well they would read what I like. But then I was like, wait. I had fun thinking about this and trying to separate myself [from them]. I actually had to write it down. So, for me, the author, I wrote down All Fours by Miranda July, which I also think they would like but I have others for them that felt stronger. Like Worry by Alexandra Tanner, which is also about siblings. Another book is Mother Doll by Katya Apekina, which is about inheriting and family history. There’s honestly crossover because I like these books too – I feel like it’s Christmas and I want everyone’s presents. But I have two books for them that I think are the shiniest. [The first is] Madwoman by Chelsea Bieker, which is out now. I think that one would ignite the sisters. Then the second is My Lesbian Novel by Renee Gladman. I feel like, for Bernadette, where she is – well, I think both of them. They weren’t these girls who had sex all the time, they struggled with intimacy. So, My Lesbian Novel, I think that would be a book that Bernadette would definitely want to read and Joanne too. I think Joanne would steal it [from Bernadette]. Bernadette would be like, ‘I really want to read that,’ and Joanne would be like, ‘I definitely want to steal that.’ Or Joanne would trade [with Bernadette] it for Madwoman.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.